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Post by Plastic Paddy on May 30, 2008 20:52:30 GMT -1
Hi, I am new to this forum and may i say so far it offers some great advice - i have spent a good few hours today reading up on various areas.
In relation to my queries I have been tampering with yeast based CO2 systems for the past 12 months and getting mixed results due to CO2 fluctuations - i also had a algae problem which i think was due to fluctuations not totally sure but it coincidentally disappeared once the CO2 leveled out.
Cutting to the chase i am sold on getting a pressurized system and making my tank more stabilized.
I have been reluctant to do it due to cost and also the lack of support for these systems in Ireland (may be i am just looking in the wrong areas/wrong shops etc!).
I stumbled across some correspondences on other threads indicating the use a fire extinguisher with a regulator and solenoid etc.
Can i ask how and where do you get your bottle refilled with CO2 in the Dublin area and what is the cost?
This solution would seem a very cost effective pressurized solution as some of the brought in solutions from the UK are quite expensive and as i have said not all shops seem to support them.
I also have a friend who can get CO2 that is used in welding industry but i am reluctant to use this as i would think you would need CO2 that is used in the brewing industry - am i right to be cautious or is the CO2 the same grade?
I would appreciate any help and advise on the above and look forward to contributing to the message board.
Many thanks
Ian
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Post by mralgae on Jun 3, 2008 10:30:56 GMT -1
Hi Ian & welcome to PTF. From sunny Dublin (I am in Clontarf) Sorry for late reply but been off line for a few days. In relation to c02 & algae. If c02 is not kept stable it will cause an algae out break, more so of the green type. Diy is fine for a smaller tank but can work well for the average tank also. If your tank is well planted and stocked it would be worth looking at c02 injection. The FE is one of the easiest ways to go with this but as you say it is a problem here in Ireland getting them refilled. But in general a 5kg FE should last well over 12mths at approx 1bps in a 240L tank. (which I have) There was a company in walkinstown that refilled FEs but have now moved and I am trying to get hold of there new address and phone No. at the moment. There are suppliers like “wackers” that can get small c02 refills but don’t last long and need a good supply of them. You are correct in the fact of welding c02, but many over time have used these with no problems at all (I haven’t personally used this). The main problem in ireland is that planted tanks are only just coming into there own right and are a good bit behind the rest of the world. I will PM you some contacts from over here.
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Post by Plastic Paddy on Jun 3, 2008 13:48:09 GMT -1
Thanks for the reply - i have had a great time over the last couple of days reading through all the threads and my only regret is not finding this site before i started experimenting with live plants. My knowledge on live plants is pretty much self taught with bits and bobs picked up from aquarium specialists/internet and so this forum is a great find.
In relation to your answers I think you are 100% right with your statement about "CO2 systems being new to Ireland".
I have found my investigations simply frustrating! Some of the prices i have been getting from gas suppliers and aquarium specialists in Ireland are simply crazy compared to the UK market.
I contacted pretty much all the gas suppliers in the Golden pages with little to no success. Air Products in Tallaght for example told me they can not refill a fire extinguisher for me because they can not guarantee the "integrity" of the cylinder. They are happy to rent me one of their own cylinders at €0.32 a day. This equates to nearly €120 a year on the cylinder rental alone.
Also the regulator with the solenoid you indicate in your articles with a 22mm collar will not fit this cylinder type and so i would have to purchase a 4 bar regulator from them at an additional €185!
To add to my continuing frustration I have also found the aquarium shops just as unhelpful/misguided - only a few know what you are talking about and these only offer the basic Tetra type kits which use monthly or bi-monthly refills etc which again is a false economy! You are spending €120 plus a year on CO2 refills.
I have a 160 liter tank that is fairly well stocked with plants and have had great results with the DIY yeast set up when i can control it. As i mentioned before i did experience some excessive algae growth due to poor level control & thank you for confirming what i thought was the cause! I had to resort to a black out situation and alot of water changes to control it. I still have some minor algae but i feel it gives the tank a more natural feel.
After many months using the yeast DIY solution i think i can confidently say you have to accept that the limitations of the yeast and its ability to produce CO2. Yeast naturally does not produce a uniform amount of CO2 as the fermentation process occurs and also the CO2 production is temperature dependent - the warmer the solution the more active the yeast will be but only to a point as you can also kill it with to high a temperature.
I have tried to sit the plastic bottle onto a small reptile heat pad and/or wrap the bottle in a cloth etc to maintain a stable temperature and enhance the fermentation and the results are all so variable. I even found the quality of the yeast varies even from the same supplier!
My thinking was, with all the time and money i am spending trying to get the yeast DIY solution to be stable i could just invest in the DIY pressurised system. Your proposed solution looked fantastic when i stubbled across it and more importantly it was working with you. The problem i have encountered is REFILLING the d**n bottle!
In relation to refilling a fire extinguisher any help would be most appreciated as i really feel the pressurized system is the only way to go. It is controllable in the sense you can set it up to produce a constant amount of flow
I am still nervous to use the welding CO2 though just in case it does have a detrimental effect on my plants and more importantly on my fish. I have not been able to find a definitive answer on this issue - although a technical assistant from one of the gas suppliers since my first post told me there is no difference between industrial and commercial CO2 and that all you need to do is ensure it is 100% CO2 and not a CO2/nitrogen mix which is more commonly used in the welding industry - not sure or confident enough to try though!!!!! Should have paid more attention in my chemistry lessons at school i guess!!!!
One last question in relation to your CO2 diffusion method. Do you just let the CO2 diffuse in the surrounding water or have you placed the diffuser close to a pump head to ensure even spread of CO2 through the tank. I am not talking about directly injecting into a pump head but more in relation to water flow/circulation. I have certainly found in my yeast DIY set up that the plants closer to my reactor seem to respond better and show more growth which would tend to suggest more CO2 in this area.
Speak soon - Ian aka Plastic Paddy
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Post by mralgae on Jun 4, 2008 0:24:13 GMT -1
Hi Ian, Glad you had some fun reading the forum. Unfortunately its used now more as a library by many but I do check in every day just incase LOL. I have let it slip some what which is my fault but I went over to modding on PFK and others and lost track of this site. We have all been in your position when we started out and unfortunately Ireland is as I said way behind in the planted tanks of this world. Fish have more of a balance here in Ireland and we do have some very experienced fish keepers here. I will PM you some contacts as I said.
I did the same when I first started looking for c02 supply’s here and there really isn’t any help out there as there is over in the U.K. and then by the time you pay the shipping on the likes of the cylinders then the costs really do start to mount up. The system I use as I take it you have seen is now being used by a lot more planted tank nuts over in the UK more than any others since I posted the system on the PFK site. But they still have a bit of a problem with refills but no where near what we have. The reg I use can also be used on pub cylinders if you know of any one in the trade, but it has to have the male thread as does the FE. Wackers in parnell st are about the best for plants and the new girl (anna) seems to know what she is talking about. Although they again can only get the average c02 kit you talk about. As you say its not the equipment but the c02 refills which is the problem. I am waiting for a reply back from one of Irelands most influential planted tank nuts to see if he can shed any more light on where the place I knew about has moved to. This was the only place that we knew of that would refill a 5kg FE for approx €20. yep I said €20. that’s a big difference. I need refills for both my cylinders at the moment so as soon as I here I will let you know.
I don’t know what lighting you have over the tank or how long you run it for but may be a shorter light period might help reduce the algae if you have more than 10hrs a day lighting try reducing it back to approx 8hrs. or you could try a midday siesta, this only works with DIY yeast systems. Basically if you say have the lights on for 8hrs cut it in two and run 4hrs with a break of about 2-3hrs then bring the lights back on for the other 4hrs. this method has been questioned by the planted gurus and the jury is still out as to if it works or not! But those who do try it have reported good results in cutting down or completely getting rid of any algae they have had. The BO (black out) system does work as I know only to well and had to resort to it many times my self until I found what was causing my GW and algae problems. I also feel that some algae growth gives a more natural feel to any tank even if no plants are in there. To many people are pushed by the gurus in to believing that algae is a bad thing and that a planted tank should be crystal clear at all times, I personally do not follow or advise that in any information or help I give to any one. The gurus are also all to fond of this dosing ferts all the time which again doesn’t work for every planted tank. I have a 240L fully planted tank and don’t add anything to it except weekly water changes which has more than enough nutrients to feed the plants. I am also a great believer in carbon sponges and p04 removers but this depends obviously on the tank stats them selves. Your are correct in what you say about yeast based systems being unstable through temp and mix etc. and the yeast giving more or less as the case may be. What I have suggested to a few and it seems to be working for them with diy is to have a couple of 2ltr pop bottles on the go. As one is nearing the end so the second one is added so to reduce to much fluctuation. Some use as many as 4 on the go at once each being replaced at different times.
On the industrial c02 again you are correct in what you have been told but need to make 100% sure that it is pure c02 and not mixed. On some tests done and by removing the labels you can see what the bottle holds. I am the most DEficient person when it comes to chemistry and gave it up in school LOL but have picked it up again over the past years because of the tanks.
As for the diffuser placement more so again with diy it is best placed as close to the flow of the out let pipe as possible as this will cause the turbulence to disperse the c02 better. But as for the plants near the placement this shouldn’t really have any effect at all unless the flow is not circulating around the tank fully. When c02 is in the water it should be all around the tank unless there is to much surface agitation which will remove the c02 from the water column. With c02 injection although some do and some don’t place the diffuser again under the flow of water but many as I do have it placed at the other end of the tank for no other reason than to be able to hide the equipment form being seen. I will get some info together and send you the PM.
Talk soon.
regards
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Post by Plastic Paddy on Jun 4, 2008 8:29:28 GMT -1
I really appreciate the advice - many thanks.
I have received so much mixed advice from aquatic shops on various subjects from lighting to fertilizers and it nice to hear some advise based upon personal experience. Like us all in this hobby I have spent alot of time and money on my tank and so the risk goes up when doing something new and to have some more confidence from talking to people who have already walked the path makes you feel alittle more comfortable.
Thanks again - Ian aka Plastic Paddy
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Post by msghael on Aug 17, 2008 14:41:12 GMT -1
A welding CO2 cylinder is safer than a fire extinguisher, which can be lethal if not handled by a person who has the know-how. The FE has a tube from the valve running to the bottom of the cylinder to ensure that liquid CO2 is ejected which converts to gas several hundred times in volume to engulf the flame. We don't want the liquid coming out. It will also damage the regulator. CO2 purity for FE and welding should be the same. I use a modified FE cylinder with the siphon tube removed as the cylinder is left at home with the ladies and the children and I don't want to take a chance. Maninder Kolkata, India
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Post by mralgae on Aug 18, 2008 0:41:44 GMT -1
hi msghael & welcome to PTF, thanks for your input on this. FEs are widely used in europe by nearly all planted tank nuts, inc myself. the reason behind this is that it is difficult to get small welding bottles suitable for home use. most start at approx 3ft tall so near immpossable to hide in the living room. in all the years i have been keeping tanks i have never heard of any misshaps with using FEs.
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